Summary:
In this insightful conversation, Duradry founder Jack Benzaquen discusses the intricacies of building a brand within the highly competitive direct-to-consumer (DTC) landscape. He explores his strategic approach to branding and reveals how Duradry carved out a niche in a market dominated by big pharmaceutical companies. Jack also takes us behind the scenes of product development, highlighting the importance of ingredient selection and the complexities involved. Furthermore, he shares his insights on effective marketing strategies and how he established a solid foundation for his nascent DTC brand.During the discussion, Corey, Colin, Jack, and Phoenix tackle a range of topics pertinent to ecommerce and digital marketing, including a noteworthy segment on Chewy's venture into establishing its first physical vet clinic. Phoenix wraps up the conversation with a deep dive into attribution trends, introducing the innovative lighthouse model developed by AdBeacon.
Chapters:
Getting Started: 00:00 - 00:35
Welcoming Today's Guests: 00:36 - 01:14
Duradry's Beginnings: 01:15 - 05:51
E-commerce and AI Marketing Insight: 05:52 - 12:16
Topical Take: 12:17 - 30:01
The Creation of AdBeacon: 30:02 - 32:42
Deciphering Attribution Models: 32:43 - 35:22
The Lighthouse Attribution Model Breakdown: 35:23 - 41:36
Transcript:
and I'm a sweaty dude brother that's the first thing that we need to to understand here so basically founder market fit talk me through that how did you get things going you fully bootstrapped I started with very little money you keep everything small you have to ask for favors any interesting ways you guys are using AI they don't believe in anything they only believe in money they're going to sell it to anyone that's willing to pay that's the thing about [Music] China [Music] what is up guys welcome back we have two amazing guests with us re e-commerce live we have Phoenix who is going to give us a treasure Trove of data she's the CEO ad Beacon she's going to come on later today and just drop some gems on us I'm excited for the gems and then we got Jack CEO of durad dry I have some right here with me because I'm a sweaty dude I get nervous I sweat a lot so Jack's been helpful with that Jack's going to talk about scaling Dura dry basically everything to do with Shopify Brands scaling Dura dry everything he's excited about um I'm super super excited we're just gonna get into it uh Corey do you want to take it away yeah let's go thanks Colin and thanks Jack and Phoenix yeah I always like to start these things off if you could just tell us a little bit about the the Genesis of dur dry and how you came to found it and what that was like like coling I'm a sweaty dude brother that's the first thing that we need to to to understand here so basically founder market fit but the Genesis honestly you know one of those random or or things in life that you don't plan I got into cpg in the cpg world maybe 20 years ago back in Venezuela where I'm from but started you know selling stuff to Brick and Mortar hand soap hand sanitizer shaving gel a bunch of other stuff from China from Turkey local manufacturing and basically you that's how I I learned cpg of course you know it's you keep learning move to to the US and had that project back in Venezuela and and then when I came here I started it from scratch again no network no no understanding of the market no nothing just bootstrapping in and here we are talk me through that how did you get things going you fully bootstrapped or you like how did you get to launch I started with very little money but I did start with money when I say very little money let's say under 100K to do our first run you keep everything small you have to ask for favors not for people that you know but for for example for manufacturers hey you know I know that the mlq is I don't know 10,000 units but I'm starting out just please help me with this so there's a lot of that there's a lot of just hustling like I package every order myself I went to the manufacturing facility to deliver some raw material there was stuff going and coming from my home um a tiny studio apartment that's how you do it another thing that is key is understanding that it takes time um if you have your network and you don't have a lot of money and you can't raise money because honestly in my case just even till today I haven't been able to raise institutional money right but takes time in the sense of if you take the lwh hanging fruit you're going to be able to survive you're not going to be able to scale like crazy but the business is going to start moving and once you start moving and you can start fixing things in the business you're going to start growing little by little and then you just reinvest anything that business is making into the business right until hopefully one day you cross that threshold of critical mass or you find institutional capital or you know maybe you don't need to maybe just keep growing bootstrap right there's a bunch of brands that have done it I think that Sean from Rich bootstrap it and they're over 200 million a year now what was the brand Vision with dur dry what was the angle or differentiation points that you guys believed in for launching we started as a solution for excessive underarm sweating it's a sort of like a niche problem and when I say Niche is because maybe five to 10% of the population sweats or has a condition that makes them sweat more than they want and say 5% but then up to 20 sweats more than they want and that's how we started and of course that allows you to focus all your resources into one very specific angle and once you kind of like conquer that angle I mean that's what I what I'm currently doing you have to start broadening the appeal of the brand and and start growing it right I don't know if just out of luck or that's the way it happened because I plan it honestly it's been so long but basically if I had tried to go straight into you know trying to compete face to face against any brand from Pro gamble or uni lver probably I would have been left in the dust right starting Nish and then trying Slowly by slowly to broaden the appeal with there aspects about like the product ingredients or something that were differentiated like is you're saying it's you know antiperspirant kind of angle is that right or something that people does not understand is that there are many ingredients to help reduce sweat out of those many ingredients um only a few are approved by the FDA out of those are approved by the FDA there are some that are more effective than others and out of those that are more effective than others even some that have the same exact name on the label have different properties why because they modify the atomic ratio between the component of that molecule exactly they're isomers they have the same Inky name but they perform differently right so there's so much to know about this antiperspirant industry let's say um and I've been focused on it for a long enough time to kind of like dig dig dig until I understood so many things about the ingredients and also the excipients which is what we're working on right now so you guys are doing well mid seven figures brand any channels for growth that you guys are excited about that you see as being instrumental to the Future that people maybe should be looking at none and when I say none that includes Tik Tok and includes everything everything at the moment for under let's say $50 aov Brands it's it's kind of tough and that's one of the reasons why for the last I don't know a year a year and a half I've been focusing a lot on product they say that you do sales because you're bad at marketing and you do marketing because you're bad at product so even though marketing is the one that pushes or helps you scale the product has to be there so I had to go back to the product and start working on it harder and harder and harder well they say the best way to Market your product is to sell it have you guys done anything with YouTube yes honestly I love YouTube but again it's tricky for lowo products but I love YouTube I think the hardest part about it is you can spend $50,000 on an ad and get zero results or you can spend $5,000 on an ad and spend you know be able to spend millions of dollars on that ad and get you know build your entire business on that it's a hit or miss almost because if a creative is not quite right or the type of humor that you chose doesn't feel good to your target market that's it you just threw down the drain I don't know half a million dollars this long form that you're talking about are agencies like I think one is called raindrop or something like that they're very good but you know the price range is like between 300 and 500k for for a commercial the second part is attribution that with with YouTube is is a little bit tricky because it's mostly a view through conversion but yeah I love YouTube and by the way the algorithm when compared to Tik Tok and an IG I like it much better the YouTube the YouTube's algorithm yeah it feels like if an agency could figure out how to produce you know that type of content for an affordable rate for 20K like that would just be all day long 100% 100% you can spend Millions on that one creative that's the beauty of one of those until you've like reached audience saturation you you can grow to to nine figures on one that's what pillow Cube did basically is they just had that one creative rolling and then they scaled it onto YouTube all the way to eight past nine figures and the fatigue never ran out which is crazy so any interesting ways you guys are using AI trying to sus out interesting use cases the first thing I would say most things that that say I it's you you have like you have to kind of like where is thei right most most of them is just just a linear regression and that's what they do super super excited for creating ads with video ads with AI there you know one in stealth that I'm talking to and then there's AR ads that I don't know a day or two ago this girl from Dirty something the whites posted it and honestly it's just it blows my mind in one year we're going to have an issue with only fan models with influencers with you know any anyone that's selling their likeness online we're going to have an issue with this with this uh things to your question honestly pretty basic stuff like chbt helped me a lot with with creative copywriting and research uh Firefly free tool from Adobe also great but you know I would need to check you know all the apps that we're using and where the ones that are using AI uh but there's definitely a lot of it half of it is BS half of it is is is real I would say 90% is BS hot coming in hot 90% is BS I love that Phoenix do you agree yeah I mean I don't love the direction AI is going in terms of creation of ads like I love the beauty of a brain so maybe I'm a purist in that sense but I will say that there are incredible benefits like mid journey is insane I know that we are working with Gemini instead of chat GPT Which is far more intuitive it it actually takes it it stores what you prompt it much better I would say so I would go into that we use it very consistently I did my entire wedding itinerary on Chachi BT and then like gave it and did a better job than my wedding planner when it comes to like ad creation you're talking to somebody who loves ugc you're talking to somebody who loves like outof theb boox thinking I just don't know if AI is going to be that big brain I think it's going to be the execution arm in a lot of ways so that's just my my opinion on it yeah as soon as you saturate the market with everything that looks the same stuff that's going to stand out is going to be stuff that's different and that's the problem with cookie cutter Solutions they're just not going to work but these tools to enable I me I think that's a great Point going back to like YouTube like what Sora I'm sure you guys have seen open ai's new video model like where video will be at to be able to construct your vision in a unique way to your point of what you were discussing about like what raindrop does there's Jacks at raindrop and like a couple of those guys they do incredible work but I've also been on the other side it wasn't actually them I believe but it was a different agency that had done for a tella Health company this really mass-produced video and we had like a big star that was on there they wanted to do Carmen electure down the road and they spent hundreds of thousands if not Millions for this ad right highly produced and it did not hit it did not hit at all but my it was about erectile dysfunction and it was like it was a huge deal we spent so much money on it and then I spent a lot of money on ads for it and again it didn't hit so then we did one on a phone an iPhone it was me and I was like squirting toothpaste out of a bottle and it just wrecked house and I guess the day and age of us taking so much risk in a highly produced piece of content is just that that risk factor is just too high in comparison to being able to by ratio just come out with a bunch of new content on an iPhone hoping that it's a fraction of a hit from a well produced ad so it's a caveat to what you're saying like I understand how impactful that type of commercial can be but I again I want lifetime value here and I it's just hard for me to dump all that Capital there unless you have Fu money like you're were saying Corey where you're like just just burn it and we'll see what happens let's move forward to some some tasty news we got some amazing news for you guys just got some recent DC news and then we're going to jump into a couple tweets but um first one of the day that hit this week is that the Ecommerce deal count fell more than 50% in 2023 super scary what do you guys think about this is are e-commerce deals just going down the pipe and we're just like never going to be able to do Acquisitions or are the numbers so thrown off people are just going to be selling for crazy crazy evaluations that aren't good anymore I think we're in a really weird time you know when people don't feel confident people don't move so it's like I'll take it back to iOS because you know that's my nerdiness coming out is when iOS 14 came out and attribution and all the issues were happening nobody was coming out with Solutions no one was talking people were talking about what iOS was but they weren't coming up with Solutions and nobody was moving so they're scared and I think that's what's happening right now retail is back out you know people are feeling confident to go back in stores people's buying habits are different it's a highly saturated market now in e-commerce and there's a lot of trust issues too because a lot of people got burned you know buying via e-commerce and D Toc also valuations in the trajectory of which they were supposed to meet at weren't being met especially in 2023 a lot of people were expecting to hit record-breaking numbers some did and many did not especially in 2024 it's just an unstable time so to me this is nothing new but I think the people who sustain and into the next year we're going to see these numbers rise this is my prediction I agree with most of what Phoenix said to be honest I'm I'm actually excited that this is happening I know that there's people suffering because they they're not being able to raise but I think it's healthy for the industry because many VC got burnt out because they invested at ridiculous valuations e-commerce is not Tech in the sense of of how quickly you can scale it you're moving atoms right there's inventory there's lead times there's manufacturing there's a lot of stuff and you have to also iterate on the brand it takes a lot of time you can't just dump hundreds of millions of dollars into a brand and expect them to advance in one year what they need three or five years to do I love it both optimistic takes on the industry of as a whole so you got basically the the Warriors surviving and moving forward Despite All Odds and then a healthy correction for the overall industry this is also just indicative of a bunch of really poorly run D Toc brands that were well funded and I also believe that like we're on a comeback cycle like whenever you see mainstream media picking up on how bad things are that's when things get interesting and to you know now it's easier to build to your point less money being thrown into ad bid markets so you can profitably grow so yeah I think we're actually in a big change cycle where everyone was forced to become way more efficient last year and drive towards profitability and the companies who survived and the ones that are able to get into the game are all going to be of like a higher caliber and enabled by a better tool set in the market Sweet let's jump on to the second piece of news um Albert CEO brand new plans to close basically most of the stores and then outdoor voices closed all of its retail stores and then former employees from outdoor voices are saying it's going to be bankrupt any any second now any minute now what do you guys think about this I mean everybody always beats up on all birds as like this this company never should have gone public as the to see company and then you have outdoor voices who's pushing all back to e-commerce to beasts in the industry what do you guys think about these two this is happening more than we even know because it hasn't been public yet I have been working with the brand for over 3 years that is extremely well known and I'm seeing that I saw that happening six months ago with this brand and they just completely cleaned house um they literally just cleaned house completely agency's gone CF or CEO uh CMO gone like everything and they think somehow doing that is going to save the brand or they already know it's going to fold um I think I'm going to use the example of the brand I'm speaking to rather than these two because I think it aligns very similarly is number one this brand went into retail too fast at a time that didn't make sense so about three years ago they're like we're going to go into retail and they opened like five to seven stores brick and mortar and they were massively expanding because they had all this extra capital from when Co hit via their D Toc so the projections like we were just talking about were just so inflated that they're expecting this big boom that's just non-existent but they never actually tapped into brand and that's kind of what I wanted to tap on to with you Corey is like some of them were just not well run some were poorly run they didn't think of the lifetime value they didn't think about the long-term strategy and then like backup plans profitability should have been first but also like creating a brand that people wanted to come back to and I don't know if all words outdoor voices may be a little bit different have built that strong enough to to withstand the massive growth that they've had especially going public so I think this is very Norm like not I would say normal but this is more common than we realize and I'm seeing it directly I mean I was just let go from that brand of media buying last month and I had been working with them for three years and 8 xed their business since I started with them I just have this H hypothesis and I'm I'm you know definitely curious to hear your thoughts on this too Jack but I feel like there was just massive wage in expense inflation in like 2018 through 22 and people just didn't correct and at the end of the day that looks like Twitter style layoffs and then rebuilding from there at reasonable wages with people that are motivated to to work in this new environment that is not you know they calm relaxed you know everything you know snacks at the bar type lifestyle that they were accustomed to when these companies were overly funded and there's a way to run you know if we look at as we mentioned the Ridge and how you guys are doing it we had Haven on last week like you can run these things Scrappy and like build an amazing brand with amazing product amazing service but you have to work hard you have to find people who are willing to work hard you can't overhire you have to think smart probably about offshore hiring for as many roles as you can I agree with everything you both said and I think that it's mult factorial there's you know there were there were a lot of supply chain issues during the pandemic and then everyone stocked up and then demand dropped but I think a big part of it is that institutional money changed or pivoted so fast that they were only interested uh in growth if you were not growing like crazy they wouldn't fund you so the incentive for this uh DTC companies was to just push for growth even though they were losing money because the people that were funding them couldn't care less about the losses they were just funding funding funding and then suddenly 2022 maybe 2023 they pivoted hey we now need profitability and then when you have a ship that's just you know big ship let's say because of the money that you that you have moving in a certain direction it has momentum and then just to steer it is very very difficult let's run on to number three this is my most fascinating piece of e-commerce news in the past couple weeks I'm super nerdy about this but e-commerce giant chewy is now opening physical spaces but they're going to be veterinary clinics and they're starting in Florida they're going to be called chewy vetare I think this is so unique this is such a good take on conventional retail where every brand is like oh yeah let's just prop up a retail store this is such a good spin on it I think it's either going to crush or it's going to fail beautifully there's no in between for this uh what do you guys think I read the article and actually what caught my eye wasn't even that oh I think that's super super fascinating but it's this concept it's a software solution called practice Hub and practice Hub is basically an e-commerce portal for vets um so they don't have to hold excessive I would say inventory and they can just ship it on their behalf which to me is just so genius because again like integrating a brand with that segment and category is amazing during Co we have a I'm I'm in California specifically in Thousand Oaks and we have our mall right and the mall I started seeing all these shops closed Clos Clos closed you this giant piece of property and like nobody is actually like in the stores anymore and I was like okay we're going to have to reinvent what a mall is like you come in here and maybe it's a virtual reality where you do a try on but then it gets shipped to your door you no longer can just go in and buy like the whole landscape has to change something has to change and it was really surprising that nothing changed we just waited for Co to stop and then we just went back to retail and we didn't rethink it so I think merging e-commerce in some form and with retail could be a game changer right now we're really looking at them as completely different avenues for Revenue when in reality they could go hand inand so I think this is a very interesting approach I wonder if you can create a subscription model in store too or like have there's so many more things we can do I think this is just tapping or like scratching the surface I think there are many layers to this I love the idea first of all pet food is notoriously bulky so I guess there's a little a bit of that there you also have some branding because if you call the the vet the veterinarian clinics chewy there's also some branding component there you're also giving a phase that's positive to the consumer because you know it's like care and then you go and grab your whatever you need for your for your pet I just I particularly think it's it's genius maybe the maybe the vet pays for the rent and then the sales just are extra Revenue extra like just pure profit let's say I don't know exactly how their modeled is but I I do like it yeah they're going Beyond just integrating retail right they're integrating a service line that's associated with that customer if you will the the pet um I think the likelihood of success is very low I think it's genius but the execution um and I think the fact that they're looking at this to execute on growth presumably makes me question that they could also execute on building a high quality service operation so I don't know enough about the brand but it feels brilliant but really hard well sweet let's run to we got two tweets for you first one is from Sean I brought this one up specifically because I had no clue about this I didn't know what a general exclusion order was I dove into this entire thread I read all about this I don't know if you guys have seen this but it is the nuclear weapon of Ip enforcement basically anyone who wants to even think about selling a ridge wallet ever again will get absolutely destroyed if they try to do it in on Amazon on Shopify on anything now mind you this is really really expensive Sean explains you know we have a legal team of people that cost us over a million dollars a year this is going to have to get signed by the president of the United States six of these get approved every single year when you're thinking about IP stuff six the whole year you only get six and Sean's one of them which is absolutely crazy it's beside the point yeah what do you guys think about this I didn't even know this was a thing Jack would you try to get one of these and first of all what what's the mechanism because I have no idea what's the mechanism here it's to prevent thirdparty Sellers from are you seeing how is it enforced yeah exactly because the regular route is hey you catch someone and then I don't know how but you just you just demand that they remove it or you can enforce with the retailers right like you go to Amazon and say no you know I have this General exclusion guessing that the six is how many people go through the trouble of it every year or is a limitation uh like a a statutory that we only allow six new companies that be anti-competitive seems like a great opportunity for AI and a lawyer to build a service to make this easier on Brands to go get this done so if you manufacturing China that means that they have access to your IP they're actually making the thing they don't believe in anything they only believe in money they're going to sell it to anyone that's willing to pay that's the thing about China I was at the trade uh one of the biggest trade shows in guano China so I used to go back and forth there was the Hong Kong trade show and then you go to guano so you'd go back and forth it was like one you know what I'm talking about right and I mean yeah it's a slime it's slime City it's profit City it's a completely different it's yes I I understand the idea of General exclusion order I think it's a good nice to have I think it's a privilege to be able to get something like that when the majority cannot with the understanding that the majority will replicate regardless and you just have to wait for the repand that's the biggest problem is like what's going to come of it I think it's really important I wish the system was different I just don't know what the solution is when we do manufacture overseas and do business and knowing that you're in a lot of you're in a very vulnerable state regardless next up we got David talking about uh this is the final one for you guys it's crazy to me that meta has been broken for a month now uh is meta broken or is this just the new Norm maybe Phoenix can probably shed a ton more light onto this because she's got the the juicy data but um it just feels like this might be the new Norm that people don't really want to hear that what do you guys think okay look meta has been broken to me and my eyes for a very long time so for me I'm not this isn't new to me but I also think like bid caps cost caps a lot of the structures that we've had in place as bumpers to ensure that we have a lower CPA are just not going to be as valid anymore because of this exped of spend randomly at times or whatever it may be we're relying so much on a platform to make sure we get the best possible results I think we need to reinvent and understand that the platform we've trusted so much is just a platform it's just that and I think to the point of David Hermon fantastic so I was in Dubai and I we were doing affiliate world and I'm sitting here and I'm hearing the same redundant um on stage no shade to affiliate world and then Mark Joiner comes up on stage and Mark Joiner is the inventor of the pixel and he said something that I'll never forget he's like never create a table with three legs you want a table with a thousand legs and I didn't know what that meant at first but what he meant was if you create a table with three legs meta Google Tik Tok you're super vulnerable because a lot of those companies prior to iOS put all their eggs in meta and then we did everything on meta so when meta quot quote breaks are business breaks so you want to create a table with a thousand legs maybe not a thousand right that's a lot but it's the same idea here so your to invested in meta period I completely agree with you need to be able to have a robust brand organic channels all these different things product development like Jack said that's what keeps people coming meta is just a tool to in you know increase it at a rapid rate so that's my hot take I think it's just he's 100% on on point here I agree with Phoenix but also to add to that yes you want to diversify your channels as much as you can at the same time you have limited bandwidth so it's normal that you know most people focus on a few channels um especially to scale there's also the fact that maybe 10 20 years ago I don't know if you guys remember the only way was to be let's say on TV cable TV and you had to spend Millions right and then we got new new channels and it worked for us but I think that what's happening now is that these channels are maturing and slowly by slowly entry price is going up and up and up and up and it's pricing us and a bunch of people out of the market in some way right so you're going to need product you're going to need to diversify channels you're going to need to have distribution because again let's say that I'm competing for an ad placement on Google with Old Spice right so they're going to be able to outspend me not only because they have more money but they have more distribution so their ads are going to probably are going to have better return investment if they do it right so again there are so many happening the trend is that ads are every year is going up and up and up and up and up and it's pricing people out that's you know as simple as that and keep in mind like meta is still profitable like you can still make money off of it right and with timu or temu however you want to pronounce it it's like I always there's a saying right just be better be better like just try to be better in other words if I'm seeing McDonald's ads all day long and suddenly I randomly see a Taco Bell ad I just because I get some variance there I'm probably going to want to go to Taco Bell instead of being fed you know McDonald's all day long but again let's flip it if it was a Taco Bell ad but it was something so cool and it created silence in the sea of noise of McDonald's ads it's going to catch my eye it's like again you might not have the majority but if you do have the minority and the chance that they do see you make it count so the the days of mundane ads is gone which I I think is a big reason why so many companies folded amazing Cory you want to start the data corner with Phoenix yeah let's well not much for me to say here um just Phoenix why don't you just kick it off tell us a little bit about how you started ad Beacon and then if you can give us some insights and we can close it out yeah so I actually started my a little background on me I started my entire career as a model um back and that's actually how I know Corey just through the Great Vine when he was at distill and it's just a funny culmination of events full circle but that being said um I worked at multiple Brands high level on strategy so Global marketing strategy and understanding you know what our I would say mission is and what our slogans are just old school marketing Billboards print and then never went into Performance Marketing because at the time e-commerce was budding but it wasn't as hard-hitting as it is now when I was doing that as much as I loved it I just didn't see data and metrics as a complete result from my efforts at that time and it was bugging me so I ended up going uh into an agency fresh dode had all this experience with different brands like Disney Supra uh Modello all of them and came in and I was like okay I'm going entry level into an agency for paid media specifically paid social I was the runt and I went in there and I fell in love and I dove in so hard to the point where I pushed everyone out and I became the director of that uh portion of the the business and then grew it about uh 80% which is huge and then built their organic social market and then also decided okay now that we've scaled we're on top of the world well it was a rude awakening because iOS 14 hit and I lost 40% of my book of business and I was scrambling and I was like what are we going to do so I started looking at different platforms because I learned about first party data and in doing so as much as I loved it I just didn't feel like it was built the right way I felt like there was a huge gap in the market it was nothing built for tacticians and people making the decisions in media it was great for seep so I selfishly went to my now co-founder and was like let's just build one and in doing so it became a love letter to Media buyers to Brands to agencies of how to actually read data but then react to it so fast forward we built ad Beacon um I am the black sheep in the community and the only chick in the community when it comes to attribution uh I speak on what it is I want to educate ad Beacon is basic basically a solution for agencies and media buyers and brands on how to track post iOS 14 but it's not just that we really focus on optimization we focus on making decisions for profitable growth and uh that's where we are yeah everybody on this call is like fairly aware of what attribution is and Etc and I'm going to throw out some hot takes and then I want to tell you guys that I invented an optimization model so I like to just like dump it down for anybody who's listening that doesn't understand attribution we have a lot of acronyms and giant words in marketing but we don't have a like a simple way of looking at it so all I always say is just attribution is who gets credit for like a sale or a lead within a given amount of time and you have to understand your customer journey by Channel then you're able to scale and I think we're so inundated in meta where we just see numbers and we just press buttons and we want to react fast because it's like gambling the thing is we don't have a plan and first party data just unveils so much of that so there's the concept of view versus click attribution view attribution is if you saw an ad within a certain amount of time it gets credit if you clicked an ad within a certain amount of time it gets credit I'm going to hot take this I'm going to say f view attribution I'm not even going to look at it I'm only going to look at click attribution and the reason why is I can't scale I can't feel confident without a tangible piece of evidence that this happened to a sale view attribution is a set of metrics a platform will decide that says okay yeah it helped me but it does inflate so if you're ever in meta and you do the breakdown and you look at view versus click you'll get a roote Awakening and it'll be really fun you can call me later the idea is like if you just wanted to look at first click attribution applicability is like you'll know that this is a really great Discovery Channel so often I see Meta is really good at the start but terrible at the end right like it's really good to find out about a product on meta but then when you actually purchase it's usually not meta it's also usually not Pinterest but for this example it is and last click is going to give the credit to the last touch before the sale so it ignores everything that happened before and first click ignores everything that happened after a lot of media buyers only go after last click but again you negate the entire process beforehand um because what Jack said like you know you could get an ad and then you go to Target right who's going to get credit and for how much linear attribution is really good in terms of reporting to deduce down by how many clicks there are so each channel gets credit for the amount of clicks and it all adds up to 100 at the end of the day which I think is really good in terms of reporting and then the last one is full impact in other words every single click gets 100% credit which is how meta basically does it which is why again the numbers are so inflated like you go into your Shopify and you're like what the hell is this this doesn't make sense the number one question I would get that would make my headbang on a wall is which one of these four are you going to optimize off of so I guess like high level which one would you guys choose to optimize it depends so much on your business right uh uh for example we we tried many attribution tools and we couldn't work with with with any because usually there is the the halo effect that they calculate but our business like the assumption is that Facebook has a halo effect but in our case it's Google who has a Hil effect but whatever the point is that if if you ask me I would prefer weighted attribution based on the channels that are actually contributing the most not just touching so here is the problem I own or I co-found and am the CEO of uh a an attribution platform originally an attribution platform and I sat here and people would ask me this question and my answer would be what Jack said it depends on your business but it rubbed me so wrong because I'm like there's got to be another way there's got to be something that's simpler and I agree with everything you're saying but I'm going to take it here so I realize all of these have problems right hyperinflation too fractionalized cuts off the whole journey Etc so I created something called a lighthouse model and basically what it does is it's optimization only so I realized the ones on the left were great for reporting but not for optimization the one that I'm deciding on you guys can tell me I'm full of I'm fine with it is hey if I'm optimizing for meta I can only control what I can see within this platform so if all the clicks were here and two of those clicks were meta I only care about what meta had in that hand of the sale without inflating the revenue or the volume of orders so in other words when we look at attribution platforms we often look at the entire customer Journey because we're like so excited now we can see it but if we did linear on optimization now you're you're getting a small fraction of a very long journey usually and you're optimizing off of it and you're probably screwed and your numbers look terrible full impact is the closest to meta but again so inflated and it's hard again it doesn't really help first click and last click again take out the rest of the journey and weighted is really dependent on your business so instead of looking at the full Omni Channel all I can look at is if I'm optimizing meta what was meta's hand in this customer Journey ignore the other touch points from the other channels and fraction it off just by meta's touch points in it so a very simple way of looking at this if there's four clicks $100 sale and two clicks for meta and two clicks for Google and I'm optimizing for meta I'm going to ignore Google and I'm going to get $50 for the first touch and $50 for the second touch whether it be a campaign adset or ad on the second so we created this just to optimize thinking about the one channel with proof so you're saying hey if I'm optimizing my meta ads Let's ignore what Google could have or didn't do and it's just let's only think that meta is the only Channel yeah so in this example right here in the lighthouse model there's one touch Facebook or sorry two touches Facebook OneTouch Snapchat Google Pinterest and Tik Tok if I'm looking at this all of this is is supposed to add up to $100 right we did this in the linear view I'm going to ignore Snapchat Google Pinterest and Tik Tok and I'm going to divide these two touch points in half right because there's only two because I'm optimizing on meta so yes to your point but if I were to optimize on Google then it would be a $100 Google and delete all these other right because it'd be that one campaign and would ignore but again if there's multiple touches meta then it would be divided by three or four depending on how many clicks because that was meta's hand in that sale and that's why we do it this way because in meta when we optimize meta doesn't give a about Google Bing Pinterest Snapchat they don't think they just think about their credit so as media buyers we've always been media buying this way why would we change that when we introduce an attribution platform for optimization purposes I understand it but then how do you calculate to present it to your to the user of of your of Adon like what's the cost cost what's the actual uh CPA on each of the channels because for again for optimization you're doing 50/50 fine but then if I if I ask at bcoin hey what's the CPA on on Facebook what is it so we can get CPA versus ncpa and we're able to do that based upon and again remember I'm not inflating the numbers if there was only one order and it's $100 it's still only going to equate to $100 in one order it's not going to inflate or fractional so if I look at this for example and I see here in the lighthouse Model Seven you know day click attribution I can go by new customers versus returning customers and then I can deduce down okay we still spent the same amount that's the control but then now I know how much revenue is coming from new customers this is my CPA for ncpa without the inflation of like I was saying the revenue but again if you wanted to look linearly you can but like I said we have models for reporting and models for optimization so this is kind of my idea of this is the very simplified way of optimizing because I've have yet to see anything that makes sense uh that is standard across the board because we have to remember I'm SAS I'm standard right your brand your custom I can only do as much as I can to help the greater without hyper customization so I think the next wave would be for example giving you an option to wait based off of your business that could be interesting too but this is kind of the middle ground so this is an interesting different way of thinking about it amazing that was great yeah thank you guys so much really great guests and hope to probably have you guys back really enjoyed it Brothers on on lady I was like I'm a brother you call yourself daddy Phoenix yeah or father you choose
